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EFFector - Volume 2, Issue 9 - Crosscurrents: EFF On Usenet, Compuserve, and The Well


EFFector - Volume 2, Issue 9 - Crosscurrents: EFF On Usenet, Compuserve, and The Well

############                        ##########       Volume 2 Number 9
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|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|                  EFFector
|                                          |                   ONline
|                                          |                         
|              CROSSCURRENTS:              |     
|                                          |                         
|           A Snapshot of Life at          |         155 Second Street
|              EFF's Outposts              |       Cambridge, MA 02141
|                                          |            (617) 864-0665
|                                          |                         
|                                          |   666 Pennsylvania Ave.SE
|                                          |     Washington, DC  20003
|                                          |            (202) 544-9237


                Date: Sunday, May 3rd 1992
                Time: 1:30 p.m.
                Place: Austin Technology Incubator
                      8920 Business Park Drive (off Jollyville Road).

We've been working, with Mitchell Kapor's approval, to set up an Austin 
chapter.  This Sunday it happens - we'll have our first general meeting. 
On the agenda:

MEET THE EFF - Learn what's going on. Meet the local board members
     (by the way, positions are still open on the board)! Ask
     questions. Get answers. Get input into what the Austin group
     will be doing, and the status of electronic activism nationwide.

UPDATE ON THE SECRET SERVICE CASE - Steve Jackson, the Austin game
     designer whose office was raided by the Secret Service, will
     report on the status of his case. With the backing of the EFF,
     he (and users of his BBS) have filed suit against the govern-
     ment under the First and Fourth Amendments! If this case
     succeeds, it will help secure YOUR rights as a computer user
     and citizen of the Net.

CYBERTEX CONVENTION - A year from now, the Austin EFF will hold a
     convention for BBS sysops, users, VR hackers, robot designers,
     and other citizens of Texas cyberspace . . . a Virtual Rodeo!
     Help plan - join the committee - get involved in what we hope
     will be an annual event that will draw nationwide attendance.

JOIN THE GROUP - We'll be accepting memberships. We've also got great
     T-shirts for sale for $10.00.

For more information about the EFF, or the meeting, contact
Ed Cavazos through one of the following channels:
   WWIVnet - 1@5285
   DNS - or
   Voice - (512) 385-2789
   BBS - The Bamboo Gardens North - (512) 385-2941 - POLEKAT



The EFF currently manages three open discussion forums -- each quite 
different in flavor and character.  We thought we would share with you
a snippet of daily life in each of these unique global villages.

By far, our most widely read forum is the Usenet group,
It can be accessed by anyone who has a newsfeed at their disposal. You can
also read if you don't have a newsfeed, but do have an e-mail
account reachable via the Net by sending e-mail to  In
addition, is carried on many BBSs and is echoed across the Fidonet

From: (Jim Lick)
Subject: Re: More songs about buildings and

[In response to an upset post about's policy of logging 
anonymous ftp logins.]

I thought I would add to this thread from the perspective of someone who
operates an ftp archive.  The logging here has been going on for a few
months now.  Initially, this was done without notice.  The main README file
had info about upload policies, but there was no pointer for new users to
read this.

The logging was done in response to a number of people abusing their
privileges by uploading their personal files to distribute to friends or to
bypass their local quotas temporarily.  And some people were uploading
X-rated image files.  As anyone who reads the pictures groups knows, I have
nothing against x-rated image files.  However, various local and network
policies prohibit their distribution through public ftp archives.  I would
be held personally responsible for any such files found on my site.

Not long after logging was started, someone uploaded about 10 x-rated image
files to the main incoming directory.  Because of the surprising response
from the remote site, I started a dialogue on the matter in the pictures
discussion groups on the matter about what should be done.  As a result of
this discussion, it was decided that a notice of the logging should be
posted immediately at login, and also an explanation of the upload
restrictions.  A number of other sites now post such notices also.  Note
that many sites still do logging, but do not post a notice about it.  The
logging is nothing new, just the notices are.  My notice reads:

NOTICE: All transactions are logged.  If you don't like
this, disconnect now.  All the public files are kept in the
directory /pub and below.  Do not upload anything which
could get me in trouble.  This includes illegally copied
software, x-rated image or text files, etc.  If you do not
obey this warning, your actions will be reported.
The physical disk for the ftp area is on
It would likely be faster and more reliable to use ferkel
instead of piggy, oinker, or cavevax.  (The systems are all
logically equivalent though.)
If you see something strange happening (permission denied
on files, etc.), drop me email at
If your ftp client doesn't seem to be working correctly, try
logging in with '-' as the first character in your password.

If users login with '-' as the first character in the password,
they receive the message:

230 Guest login ok, read /README before using system.

because '-' disables multi-line messages which confuse older ftp clients.

In a later discussion in another group (I don't remember which), several
people argued that the login name of 'anonymous' implied that no logging
would take place.  As a result of this, my initial action was to remove the
login 'anonymous' as a ftp login, using 'ftp' and 'guest' instead.  This
ended up screwing up mirror programs, archie, and the like, so I changed
things to send the message:

331 Guest login ok, 'anonymous' login doesn't mean you won't be logged.

if a user logs in as 'anonymous'.

I feel that such notices are the only effective ways to prevent misuse of
my server.  Logging is the only effective way to detect misuse quickly and
easily.  It is not meant to be used in a 'Big-Brother' manner.  I receive
the ftp logs in mail every morning from the previous day, and do a quick
grep on it to see if anything happened.  If nothing suspicious is noted,
its deleted.

In other discussions, I likened this logging to having a security camera in
a store.  The potential for abuse is there in each case, but security
cameras are accepted to help prevent crime.  The logs should be accepted by
users to prevent misuse.  If misuse could not be controlled because of the
lack of logs, it would be possible for some ftp archives to be closed down
completely.  Like store cameras, most stores have cameras recording your
actions without you knowing it, and many ftp sites log you without you
knowing about it.

                            Jim Lick
Work: University of California  | Play: 6657 El Colegio #24
      Santa Barbara             |       Isla Vista, CA 93117-4280
      Dept. of Mechanical Engr. |       (805) 968-0189 voice/msg
      2311 Engr II Building     | "when you gonna make up your mind?
      (805) 893-4113            |  when you gonna love you as much       |  as i do?" -Tori Amos

Subject: Ownership of messages?
From: mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US (Mike Batchelor)

Got a question about something.  Let me quote a message first, which is why
I am asking. It is from the RelayNet International Message Exchange, a
DOS-based store-and-forward network.  Bonnie Anthony is a member of the
Steering Committee for RIME, and is in a position to speak for the whole

 BBS: The Holistic BBS - Based on the Premise
Date: 04-11-92 (05:06)             Number: 10096
From: BONNIE ANTHONY               Refer#: 10093
  To: DEKE BARKER                   Recvd: NO
Subj: Free speech??                  Conf: (616) Users
DB|Assuming for the moment that making certain characterizations is
DB|a valid (RIME-legal) activity, is it against RIME rules to draw
DB|upon specific statements by that individual/group made on other
DB|conferences or networks?  To take an off-the-wall example:  If
DB|President Bush participated on RIME's DEBATE and (say) a debate
DB|conference on another network, and had made statements like "I
DB|support the Choice movement" in discussions on the other network,
DB|would it be inappropriate to quote such statements in refuting
DB|his anti-choice statements on RIME?  (Assume public statements.)

Because the other networks claim ownership of their messages, yes it would
be inappropriate to quote such statements.  You could of course say that
you saw on another network where President Bush had made those statements,
and then you could get permission from him to post his quotes on this
network, as he owns his own material as well.

I know this is seems silly here but we abide by other networks stated rules
and positions.

Now in here Deke, because this is a resolution conference, we allow
greater flexibility in making specific statements about others.  That
would NOT be permitted in an issue oriented conference per se.
 * MegaMail 2.10 #2:There is no pleasing a serpent

PCRelay:RUNNINGA -> #2 RelayNet (tm)
4.11                The Running Board * 301 229-5342 * MD

Is there any basis for her claim that the RIME network, or other networks,
own all messages passing through them?

I've asked her for clarification on whether RIME itself claims such
ownership.  Meanwhile, it doesn't seem to me like anybody can claim
ownership or copyright on messages or articles posted to a public forum (so
I have felt free to quote Bonnie's message here).

My question may be practically moot, however, since the RIME network has
the ability to put my name in an "insulate" file, and prevent my messages
from propagating if they choose to do so.  They do this routinely to
"problem users" who repeatedly violate their rules.

[] ---
[] Mike Batchelor -- mike@batpad.lgb.CA.US --!batpad!mike
[] Long Beach, California


Our latest outpost is on Compuserve Information Services.  CIS can be
reached at Customer Service Dept., PO Box 20212, Columbus, OH 43220. Our
room here is called a Forum, and we've set up several sections within that
forum -- they are:

Sysop Section
EFFector@CIS News
The Matrix
Media Watch
Maps & Guides
Beginner's Mind

The Online section is currently chewing on the concept of electronic

Topic: Officeless Companies
From: Michael Houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Gerard Van der Leun

Q: If one telecommutes from another state, to which state does one pay
taxes? A colleague just moved from Ohio to Indiana, but still works via
modem for the company in Ohio. Where is the "workplace"? Ohio? Indiana?  In
cyberspace? In the cable? Or should he just split the difference and list
Union City? (Not that he asked me, but it was the first question that
popped into my mind.)

Theory of the four great movements of human populations in terms of
proximity of sleeping quarters to food supply:

(1) Hunter-gatherer period. Migratory population, movements tied directly
to food supply.

(2) Agricultural revolution. Rural population. Static in relation to food
supply. Work of cultivation not yet abstracted as work, per se, but getting
there. (All that Book O' Genesis talk about sweat and toil and so on.)

(3) Industrial period (early). Beginning of mass movement to cities.  Manor
trades (division of labor) intensified. Work for intermediary commodity:
money. Living and sleeping quarters still physically near work.

(3.5) Ugly backsliding phenomenon of "company towns" (U.S., 19th c.)

(4) Migration from cities to suburbia, farm to cities (and sometimes
suburbia).  Increasing distance of living from work, work from food. The
Era of Wonderbread and TupperWare.

(5) Migration to virtual workplace. Increasingly ephemeral ties to 

It would be interesting to plot the length of time necessary for, say, half
the population to make each transition. This could be accomplished
relatively easily with Census Bureau figures for the (3) -(4) period. I
suspect, from the rapidity with which the movement from farms to cities
took place, and the colonization of suburbia (30-40 years?), that the
movement to the virtual workplace, which just recently began, should be a
fait accompli by 2005, at the latest. Other conjectures? Rebuttals?
Commentary on this crack-brained schema? 

And, we might ask, with an overweening sense of our ability to extrapolate
beyond the point of reasonability, What Next?

As the cognitive distances between work/food and work/place increase--as
they become unyoked, so to speak--and the very idea of "place" becomes
diffuse, what societal consequences might we observe? In previous leaps,
new connectors or intermediaries have emerged: money (between work and
food), the social wall (between city and suburb, rural and urban
concentrations of population), the necessity of the physically mobile
society (which is, with its polluting excesses and waste of time, itself
catalyzing the emergence of the telecommuting society) and its automotive
culture. What connecting objects, if nothing more than reified ideas
(recall: money has "fiat" worth, something we tend to forget, unless we're
living in late Weimar or, more recently, in Poland), will serve as
connections between the diffuse loci of service provider (the worker) and
service consumer (the temporary employer)? Any ideas on what might
precipitate out of the vacuum left by the departure of the "employee"?

Just seemed like the place to jam on these sorts of topics.

Topic:  Officeless Companies
From:  Robert Cooke, 70541,2233
To:  Michael Houdeshell 70004,1044

Michael...fascinating stuff.  Hard to predict how universal the virtual
workspace will become.  Self-motivated, or independent people who can work
alone may take to it now, but people who work communally or who need human
contact may find it harder to adapt.  Will these people accept electronic
intimacy, or will they need the physical presence of fellow workers and
employers to really feel a part of things?  Anyone caught in a flame war on
a BBS knows that electronic communication is a different breed than face to
face....more open and democratic in some ways, but lacking sorely in body
language.  With newer virtual reality communication, some aspects of face
to face may be simulated, but how much, how soon I can't say...perhaps not
in wide use and accepted by 2005.  So how many of today's workers will want
to forego the office environment?  One possible co-ops in
local sites.  You and a few dozen of your neighbors have offices in a small
building in your community.  You each have a computerized workstation, you
take coffee breaks together, you have an office softball team, and some of
you go out for beer together once a week.  Only you work for IBM, your
friend works for a law firm, the woman across the aisle is a partner in a
Chartered Accountant firm and the person beside her is a researcher for a
TV show.  You have a communal office environment with the social network
aspects and without having to commute long distances, even though you work
for a slew of disparate companies.  Will it work?


Topic:  Officeless Companies
From:  Tim Gorman 71336,1270
To:  Gerard Van der Leun 76711,320


Before going whole hog on this, better address the implementation details!
Who pays for the space, how is liability insurance handled, who changes the
mindset of upper mgmt who wants to be able to look out over their domain
and see everyone busily working, etc, who pays for office appliances (fax,
copier, etc), and probably a host of other details.

Not that these are insurmountable, the franchise idea in a later message is
intriguing, but when negotiating with a large company like I work for, this
is getting close to being "leased" space which is a no-no right now.
Neither does it contribute to the "centralization" of workforces which also
seems to be a trend sweeping the corporate culture (at least with
corporations in the central USA).

Don't get me wrong, I am a strong proponent of this decentralized
operation. But we can't even get mgmt to agree to let someone work at home
for an afternoon (sick child, etc) because they don't think full pay should
be given but don't know how to negotiate with the union for a different
wage scale nor do they think it is worth the effort to set up the
accounting system to allow for it.

Go figure.



The Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link is the meeting place of Mitchell Kapor and
John Perry Barlow, font of inspiration for "Crime and Puzzlement" and the
birthplace of EFF.  You can reach the WELL at 27 Gate Five Road, Sausalito,
CA 94965, (415)332-4335.  You can also signup online by telnet'ing to and signing on as "new".

Topic 318:  Cable TV and the National Public Network
#84 (of 96) Richard Lawler (richardl)  Mon, Apr 13, '92 _49 Lines

A few comments.

Commercial ISDN products:
I saw that Hayes is offering ISDN hardware for any Next computer for a 
few hundred bucks. To compliment this Next has fully integrated support 
for ISDN into their new operating system software.  Additionally new 
systems from Next and Sun Microsystems will include the ISDN hardware as 
standard equipment.

ISDN vs. analog:
Sure you can get close to ISDN's bandwidth using the best analog tricks 
and tools. But the fact of the matter is that the analog phone lines are 
quite limited. Basic ISDN's bidirectional 64Kb/s is analogous to the 
analog phone's unidirectional 1200b/s.  But just as that basic analog 
technology can be compressed and manipulated to achieve 38Kb/s, I 
believe ISDN will be upgraded and enhanced to achieve effective 
throughput well above the capabilities of the most advanced analog 

Currently its more cost effective for me to send a megabyte of data by 
Fed Ex than by standard 2400 baud modem.  Even when sending that data 
only 50 miles. ISDN could change that equation.  I could send that 
megabyte in about two minutes.  I know few businesses that don't use 
services like Fed Ex.

Could broadbased, standardized, basic digital communication like basic 
ISDN actually change some of the disturbing trends in our society?  I 
believe it could work to reverse our ever increasing appetite for fossil 
fuels.  It might reduce two of the pressures that cause this country to 
pave its most beautiful countrysides building shiny, aluminum industrial 
parks and housing developments: the cost and time required for 
transportation.  It also might work to reduce the gridlock on our urban 
and suburban freeway systems.

I think these benefits are in everyone's interest not just those of
business and the wealthy.  Compare the cost of digital switching systems
with the cost of building new bridges, freeways, and rail systems.  The
cost of infrastructure is everyone's interest: the have's and the have

American Airlines just reduced their airfares partially in response to
competition from, of all things, video tele-conferencing.  ISDN and 
digital communications CAN actually compete with airplanes and 

ISDN shouldn't just be viewed as a way to deliver the latest movie 
releases on demand. It should be thought of as a transportation and 
communications infrastructure that has the potential to change the 
economics and exigencies of our society and business in the coming 

Topic 318:  Cable TV and the National Public Network
#85 (of 96) habs (habs)  Mon, Apr 13, '92 _20 Lines

# 84: Richard Lawler (richardl)
ISDN shouldn't just be viewed as a way to deliver the latest movie   
releases on demand. It should be thought of as a transportation and 
communications infrastructure that has the potential to change the 
economics and exigencies of our society and business in the coming 

In fact, Basic Rate Interface (BRI) does not effectively deliver movies,
but ISDN under ADSL could.

I think that data back haul during BRI ISDN would be a key market. Data
back haul is moving data from one site to an other.  An example of this is
for off-site back-up. Something that costs small business $$$, and not
affordable to most home users.

Of course data back haul is not going to be of interest to either of my

Topic 318:  Cable TV and the National Public Network
#86 (of 96) Tom Mandel (mandel)  Mon, Apr 13, '92 _25 Lines

I take sharp exception with the statement that American Airlines reduced
its fares because of "among other things" competition from
video-conferencing.  If that is even a reason, and I doubt it very much, it
is the *least* of all relevant reasons.

In addition, there is little reason to believe that interactive digital
communications will sharply reduce the amount of time people spend in cars.
No one thinks that the need to meet f-t-f with other people will go away
because of ISDN, at least not in the next 20 years.  And for the growing
number of people who do and will work more at home, more not less driving
may be the rule of thumb.

It is not a very good idea to promote ISDN or other information services as
magical cures for society's energy and environmental ills.  There is little
to no evidence to suggest that they will be, and there is all sorts of
evidence to foresee interesting problems associated with them.  For
knowledge workers already, the workplace has expanded well outside the
walls of the conventional office; with good data linkups at home and
elsewhere, it will become increasingly difficult ever to escape the "new
workplace."  (I don't know whether this is good or bad but I do know that
it is happening and will happen more in the future.)



For a $10 donation, EFF will send you a spiffy 100% cotton white T-shirt 
with the new black and red EFF logo tastefully displayed on front, and 
the following on the back:

                         ELECTRONIC FRONTIER

                     (50's style graphic with
                 large building sitting on world)

                 Serving Cyberspace since 1990

These are the very same hot t-shirts that sold quickly at CFP-2!
They come in sizes XL and child's S only. Send your $10 check or
money order to

The Electronic Frontier Foundation
ATT:  Rita T. Shirts
155 Second Street
Cambridge MA  02141

"What a DEAL!  People will be hard-pressed to find a shirt of the same
quality with such fantastic silk-screening for less than $20 in any
T-shirt store in the country.  (You can quote me on that.)" 
    -- Brendan Kehoe  upon receiving his shirt.

*** Mention that you are an EFFector Online reader, and we will ***
             waive all shipping and handling charges!



In order to continue the work already begun and to expand our efforts
and activities into other realms of the electronic frontier, we need the
financial support of individuals and organizations.

If you support our goals and our work, you can show that support by
becoming a member now. Members receive our quarterly newsletter, EFFECTOR,
our bi-weekly electronic newsletter, EFFector Online (if you have an
electronic address that can be reached through the Net), and special
releases and other notices on our activities.  But because we believe that
support should be freely given, you can receive these things even if you do
not elect to become a member.

Your membership/donation is fully tax deductible.

Our memberships are $20.00 per year for students, $40.00 per year for
regular members.  You may, of course, donate more if you wish.

Our privacy policy: The Electronic Frontier Foundation will never, under
any circumstances, sell any part of its membership list.  We will, from
time to time, share this list with other non-profit organizations whose
work we determine to be in line with our goals.  But with us, member
privacy is the default. This means that you must actively grant us
permission to share your name with other groups. If you do not grant
explicit permission, we assume that you do not wish your membership
disclosed to any group for any reason.

---------------- EFF MEMBERSHIP FORM ---------------

Mail to: The Electronic Frontier Foundation, Inc.
         155 Second St. #29
         Cambridge, MA 02141

I wish to become a member of the EFF  I enclose:$__________
            $20.00 (student or low income membership)
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                    This allows any organization to
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                    to designate up to five individuals
                    within the organization as members.)

    |     I enclose an additional donation of $___________



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other non-profit groups from time to time as it deems
appropriate   [  ]  .

                    EFFector Online is published by
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